The Odd Couple

Shortly after the news media announced that Trump had chosen Mike Pence as a running-mate (a choice that Trump later last night said was not yet firm!), I received a request from the New York Daily News to send them 350 words describing the Governor. Here’s what I sent. (I actually think I was restrained. I could have given them the whole list.)

Yesterday, Donald Trump ended a week of feverish speculation (at least in Indiana) by choosing Governor Mike Pence as his running mate.

Color me bemused.

Pence, who describes himself as “Christian, Conservative, Republican in that order,” has a well-earned reputation as a culture warrior. In his eleven years in Congress, he was best known for efforts to defund Planned Parenthood. A bill to end tax breaks for insurance providers whose policies covered abortion appears to be the only legislation for which he was actually responsible, not just a cosponsor.

As Governor, it quickly became obvious that he had no interest in the nitty-gritty of public administration. Instead, he continued his war on Planned Parenthood, signed the most restrictive anti-abortion bill in the country, diverted education funding to an extensive school voucher program—a gift to the state’s religious schools—and most famously, infuriated the business community and a majority of Hoosiers by signing a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act” (RFRA) that would have allowed businesses to discriminate against LGBT citizens.

The blowback to RFRA was so intense that Pence folded, and signed an amendment “clarifying” the original bill. That retreat, in turn, infuriated the Indiana religious right activists who had promoted the measure—and who are Pence’s base.

Pence has been so inept at justifying these and numerous other unpopular actions that most political observers expect him him lose his re-election bid. That likely loss probably explains why he found a spot on Trump’s ticket attractive, despite the fact that it will require “Mr. Family Values” to sell a thrice-married proud philanderer who talks about the size of his penis to the only constituency with which he has any currency: the religious right.

What Pence adds to the ticket is harder to fathom. He certainly won’t help with women, or LGBT folks, or immigrants (he tried to prevent Syrian refugees from settling in Indiana). His much-ridiculed interview with George Stephanopoulos in the wake of the RFRA debacle suggests he isn’t nearly ready for the scrutiny he will receive on the national stage.

Trump must really need those Evangelicals.

Among the (many) things I didn’t mention was the fact that any credible Republicans who might actually have helped the ticket had previously signaled that they that weren’t interested. (Even Joni Ernst–the hog castrater–declined to be considered.)

Trump’s available choices were Newt Gingrich (six wives between them, and visions of a colony on the moon….), Chris Christie (He’s got a bridge…and an attitude) and our very own Mikey. All wounded, all with favorable ratings in the 30s or below.

Talk about your B teams…..

64 Comments

  1. When I posted my “Pence Must Go” yard sign; Washington, D.C. was NOT the destination I had in mind. It will get him out of the Indiana governor’s chair but, what will he be replaced with if John Gregg doesn’t win.

    I have decided to leave my “Bernie For President” yard sign standing because I still support his stand on issues. I read the letter Bernie sent to his “Bernie or Bust” supporters which included the list of issues he and Hillary agreed would be on the National Democratic Party campaign foundation before he endorsed her. Only one item is of real interest to Trump and possibly/probably Pence; “pass comprehensive immigration reform”. Their plan is that wall which Trump will somehow force Mexico to pay for and to refuse to allow any and all Muslims from entering this country, including returning American military and business and vacation travelers. You must admit those can be considered to be “reform” but I see no successful end in sight during my remaining life span.

    Hillary has said, if elected, she would put Bill in charge of this country’s economy. The two of them together have certainly improved their own economy and money is the basis of the current GOP so, who knows what route either party would take on this issue but middle America will not come out the winner whoever sits in the White House.

    I wasn’t sure if I should include Bernie and Hillary’s promised efforts to legalize marijuana or not. Indianapolis is home to the First Church of Cannabis…does that count as legalization.

    In the words of the immortal Bette Davis; “Fasten your seatbelts fellas, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride.”

  2. Sheila, I have friends from out of state asking me about Trump’s choice. Thank you for saving me from so much typing!

  4. I see Pence’s selection for VP as another train wreck for the Republicans and for Indiana voters.

  6. I was on the fence about voting for Trump, but now I have made up my mind. Myself, and all my children of voting age.

    You are less-than-candid, when you continue to state that the goal of the RFRA was to discriminate against LGTBs. That is a callous manipulation of the facts. As a Jew, I applaud the RFRA, because it enables me to avoid being forced to work on my religious holidays, and it forces my employer to make accommodations in order to enable me, and other religious-observant people, to respect their holy days.

    In regards to supporting the immigration of hoards of people from a terrorist country, suffices to say that we are watching Europe implode because of that. Terror is ingrained in Islam, and the Syrian immigrants are not cute families with ethnic-looking token-for-diversity children. The vast majority of them are young men with either no families, or who have deserted their families, to come here. Either way, they are more of a liability than an asset.

    Sheila and the liberal left continue in their Goebbelical crusade: repeat a lie until it becomes a truth.

    I will vote for Trump/Pence. At least, voting for them will ensure constant scrutiny from the liberal zealots, which, actually, is very healthy in a democracy: leaders who are held accountable by a system of checks and balances which I am not sure we can expect if the other candidate were to win.

    Have a great day.

  7. Martina Levi, you should vote for Trump/Pence if you think your right to have the day off to praise a magic man in the sky is more important than the rights of those who the magic man commands must be put to death for their sins. Good for you and fairy-guy.

    And of course those brown people TOTALLY just made up their magic man in the sky and are not to be trusted because everyone knows their fairy-guy is completely fictional and to praise him is to be a savage. Brown people. Not your tribe. Yucky.

  8. I must (half-)seriously (well, okay, maybe 1/8 seriously) consider entering the race as the GOP candidate for Governor. True, the party “leaders,” as I understand things, would choose a replacement. Also, I never have voted in a Republican primary. My roots go back over 50 years, though. I donated one-fourth of my weekly income (for one week only) to Barry Goldwater’s campaign in 1964. I was (very) young, nine years old, and (very) impulsive. As candidate I would advance the following: (1) Aim to un-do jerrymandering in the lead-up to the 2020 decennial census; (2) Advance civil rights; (3) Ban TIFs as funding mechanisms; (4) Ban public finance of professional sports; (5) Ban Tom Izzo from this State (because he seems to steal Indiana basketball players for his Michigan State squad); (6) Rid the State of RICO forfeiture laws; (7) Legalize all drugs; (8) Ban elected officials from receiving passes or tickets or whatever to suites of any professional sports contests; and (9) Ban New York Yankees and New England Patriots apparel (probably a violation of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution—that pesky Constitution gets in the way sometimes) because—well, the Yankees and the Patriots are just evil. Those are just off the top of my head. I have as much chance of being the Republican nominee as a snowball has in the infernal regions, but if nominated I shall run and, if elected—I doubt the General Assembly would allow me to serve .

  9. Martina Levi, as a fellow Jew, I consider it a shanda that you would be so ignorant about the content and effect of a law and not bother to actually read it before making statements like the one you made. I also consider it a shanda that you would think that a law enshrining the right of private businesses to discriminate is in any way consonant with Jewish values.

    Read the law itself here:
    https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2015/bills/senate/101#document-92bab197

    Actually, the law does the *opposite* of what you say — it allows an employer to say that it is against their religion to accommodate yours, and the government cannot force them to do so.

    The rest of your hate against Islam and Syrian refugees… Wow. So, you learned nothing from the story of the Exodus and the Holocaust other than a small-minded “I got mine, don’t take it away from me?” Let’s try “You shall have one law for the native born and for the stranger within your gates.” And let’s also remember that way more Americans are killed by right-wing-fringe Christians and white supremacists than by right-wing Muslim fringe types.

    Remember, you are not just embarrassing yourself, but also presenting a face of Judaism to the rest of the world. A shanda.

  10. I am adding Sharpie happy faces to my pence must go sign. But I am waiting until trump makes it official…….I don’t trust trump to keep his word….hahaha to pence for having his big moment spoiled………poor Nice, France……horrible, heinous useless loss of life……I cannot understand.

  11. Aimee, you are insulting me and that reflects upon you, not me.

    I have read the law – I tend to inform myself before speaking. Sheila actually wrote a nice piece right before this one, about people surrounding themselves in tribes and not mixing up. I do not fear being among liberals, nor do I insult them, like many liberals do when a more conservative folk dares to express their viewpoint. THAT is a shanda.

    You shouldn’t arrogate to yourself being the voice of Judaism, nor speaking on behalf of the world Jewry. That reflects on you, again, not on me.

    Moving on. If a business is un-savvy enough to deny me the catering to my son’s bar mitzvah because their religion forbids them, first of all, good luck proving it in court. I don’t know of any religion that advocates against Jews. Except Islam, of course, that advocates against killing you and me, and Christians, and Buddhists, and Sikhs, and atheists, etcetc.

    It is not as complicated as liberals try to make it. It really isn’t.

    The country is imploding, just like France is, just like Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, and the rest of Europe who has chosen to keep their head in the sand.

    If anyone is going to respond to my opinion, I would respectfully ask to refrain from ad-hominem attacks and foster respectful debate.

    Have a great day!

  12. Excellent Sheila!

    Aimee Yermish – Excellent response to MartinaLevi. You were able to put her in her place much better than any of the rest of us could have.

  14. What does Pence bring to the Republican ticket? How about some Koch money? The Libertarian Kochs are actually nihilists and Pence has done virtually nothing in his time in government. He’s their ideal candidate.

  15. Hahah. You kids amuse me.

    Why do I need to be “put in my place”? Why do some people feel compelled to cheer each other on, when they attack someone else?

    This sounds more like bullying.

    Let’s see how the dynamic works here. You are all patting each other on the back, because there is no much dissent or difference in opinions on Sheila’s blog. So y’all agree, and compliment one another, that’s very nice. And when someone comes along and expresses a different viewpoint, he/she faces attacks and then the alliances and hostile support against the dissenter. Sheesh, people. Why do you need to do that, instead of just watching a rational debate, either in silence, or expressing your individual opinion, without forming alliances?

    Have a great day!

  16. MartinaLevi:

    You accused Aimee of insulting you and claimed that you do not insult others. In the paragraph below (copied from your first post) you insulted Sheila. In your response to Aimee you insulted her and you also insulted liberals and followers of Islam. At some point in time you adopted the phrase “that reflect upon you, not me”. That is a very poor choice of words that you have adopted in an effort to convince yourself that you are above attacking others – which happens to be far from the truth. I suggest that you do some self-reflection about how you absolutely do judge others and then stop believing that you are innocent.

    “You are less-than-candid, when you continue to state that the goal of the RFRA was to discriminate against LGTBs. That is a callous manipulation of the facts. As a Jew, I applaud the RFRA, because it enables me to avoid being forced to work on my religious holidays, and it forces my employer to make accommodations in order to enable me, and other religious-observant people, to respect their holy days.”

  20. Brian Howey’s piece on Sunday offered some nice insight. He suggests that Newt would not be as easily controlled as Pence, but he also brings home the point that the two will make very strange bedfellows. My take is that they both share on important value, expedience. All that stuff about being “Christian” is nothing but authoritarianism baptized with a veneer of righteous words.

    I had to read the Huffington Post Pence description announcement a couple of times. It didn’t sound like the Pence we know, but as was pointed out earlier, maybe they didn’t want to scare off Trump. This choice is so good, and it will afford me the opportunity to vote against two fools with one vote. It’s a two-fer.

  21. MartinaLevi seems like that rarest of things, an informed conservative. Well, misinformed is more accurate but nevertheless thoughtful and studied.

    Then the hate shows up, the lens through which the studying was done.

    Yesterday I yet again repeated my home made slogan. “freedom at all is freedom for all”.

    It’s tough to grant freedom with hate in the way. One has to assume all groups are worthy; none are entitled or superior and that’s the obstacle that haters cannot overcome.

    “Trumpence” are grand haters. They’ve got the world pretty much narrowed down to family as so entitled none of the rest of us even need consideration.

    All of the analysis of Hillary is right on. She’s a traditional public servant, the kind that brung us to the dance. Her constituents are all Americans regardless of where they were born or the trappings of their Faith. She knows details like what the Constitution says and what our government is required and permitted to be and do and not do. She also knows the world well. In other words is well traveled. Well connected around the world. All of the things that we have traditionally based politics on before Rush and Roger and Rupert and their hate factory.

    I understand the feeling MartinaLevi that your tribe rocks and rules but I have come to value freedom more. There are great Jews and Muslims and none of the aboves and also some total wastes of flesh. The category doesn’t earn any exception or entitlement. They all have a right to freedom until they individually earn otherwise.

  22. Huffington Post made It official. Pence is his guy. Now, let’s cross our fingers and hope that Mitch will remain happy with his ill-gotten position as the most anti-education president of Purdue.

  24. I am sick to death of hearing militant Jews comment on American politics. They want our country to take up their hateful fight and that’s what got us the war in Iraq, and subsequent terrorist groups because we disbanded the Saddam Republican guard. Now that they can’t have a job, or support their families, they have radicalized behind a false religious war; they are thugs, nothing better, not principled or driven by a good cause. The hateful Jews have become the Nazis of today and we can’t tolerate Americans speaking to the hate and perpetuating it. That woman is radicalized with Israeli politics, lead by Netanyahu, the head Nazi who kills Palestinians daily, and keeps them in poverty, promoting Jews to settle in the West Bank and other Palestinian areas. Shame on you, keep your religious bullshit out of our conversation. We don’t promote your hateful cause and misinterpretation of everything to sway opinion to your horrible cause!

  25. This is one of the best days here in blog land in my experience. Unbridled passion sprinkled with Hoosier enthusiasm for ridding the statehouse of Pence’s.

    Are 100 posts a possibility? Let it all out.

  26. “Pence signed a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act” (RFRA) that would have allowed businesses to discriminate against LGBT citizens.”

    Come on, Sheila, as an attorney you know better than that. I was at a legal seminar after RFRA was adopted and even the ACLU attorney admitted that the law didn’t do what you claim here, that the political spin RFRA opponents were using and you repeat here simply is not true. As the ACLU representative pointed out, whether businesses can discriminate against LGBT citizens depends entirely on whether there is a civil rights law protecting those citizens from service discrimination and RFRA did not change that in either direction. (Indiana doesn’t have a state wide law civil rights laws protecting LGBT people, but some municipalities do.) RFRAs exist at the national level and in 30 states (20 by statute, 10 by court decision). There is not a single case where a RFRA was found to override a civil rights law relating to the service of goods and services. Not one. All the fix did, by the way, was reflect that fact that RFRAs don’t override civil rights laws.

    The irony is that the ACLU supported the federal RFRA at the very same time you were head of Indiana’s branch of the ACLU. I assume you supported it then.

  27. JoAnn, I took my Bernie signs down. I have read several articles from the Left just frying, slicing, dicing and roasting Sanders. Essentially, they say Sanders pulled his punches against Clinton during the campaign and has now knelt at the altar of corporatism. Among the critiques: Sanders surrender preserves the corrupt Capitalist Two Party System here in the USA once again. The possibility of a contentious Democratic Convention has now been foreclosed on. This is not a new critique of the Democratic Party Eugene Debs and Howard Zinn mention it also in their writings.

    For those of you who thought you voted for Baron Hill in the Democratic Primary – Sorry- Evan Bayh has now decided he wants to run. The giddy delight of the Indianapolis Star, etc. , is in sharp contrast to another opinion by James Hohmann.

    “One of the many reasons that so many of his Democratic colleagues did not like Evan Bayh during his tenure in the Senate was his excessive caution. The hyper-ambitious, always-privileged and ever-calculating son of a senator long dreamed of becoming president, and he represented a conservative-leaning state. So he was perennially nervous about taking tough votes or courageous stands. He often seemed to waffle and have his finger in the wind”.

    Hohmann, totally describes the Democratic Party in Indiana, and with few exceptions the Eatablishment Democratic Party in general.

  28. Paul K. Ogden:

    Sheila;s comments copied and pasted by Paul K. Ogden:
    “Pence signed a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act” (RFRA) that would have allowed businesses to discriminate against LGBT citizens.”

    Paul K. Ogden copied and pasted from his own comments:
    “Come on, Sheila, as an attorney you know better than that.”

    Paul K. Ogden copied and pasted as he points out the legal exceptions to his denial that RFRA discriminates against LGBTs:
    “…whether businesses can discriminate against LGBT citizens depends entirely on whether there is a civil rights law protecting those citizens from service discrimination and RFRA did not change that in either direction. (Indiana doesn’t have a state wide law civil rights laws protecting LGBT people, but some municipalities do.)”

    Mayor Ballard, being fully aware of the exceptions, quickly jumped on the LGBT bandwagon to get a law passed in Marion County “protecting those citizens from service discrimination” bringing the total to 11 areas throughout the entire state of Indiana, tourist season was approaching. Those civil rights laws seem to be in and closely surrounding the larger cities in this state. The rest of the state, the vast majority, is unprotected.

    The now unofficially official “Odd Couple” are both anti-LGBT; Pence claiming religious reasons, Trump claiming his right to discriminate against everyone or group he doesn’t like because he IS Donald Trump. We now need to be deeply concerned, assuming Pence accepts Trump’s invitation, about the voting history of the possible gubernatorial Pence replacement regarding the many groups Pence has denied rights to. We are still in a mess here; all the more reason to push, shove, beg, plead, threaten and/or kick butts to get Democrats to the polls to vote in November. The Republicans still have more money than Democrats.

  29. When I learned that Trump had selected Pence to shore up his evangelical credentials and connection with the nihilist deep-pocketed Koch Brothers, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. I am happy to see Pence and his toilet seat diversionary tactics out of Hoosier politics, but I think that Trump could not have picked a worse candidate to succeed himself in the event of a disaster – so I am not laughing at the prospect of a return not only to the economics of the Gilded Age but the Victorian culture as well. I will be voting for sanity and tomorrow rather than yesterday when I vote for Hillary this fall.

  31. Deborah Smith,

    Before going off half-cocked and uninformed on supposed militant Jews, whatever you mean by the term, let’s retrace the money trail, go back to the OpenSecrets top contributors for Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential election.

    As of June 27, 2016, Clinton’s top contributor is Saban Capital Group who’s contributed $10,036,171. Coming in 7th place as Clinton’s top 2016 contributor is the Center for Middle East Policy, better known as the Saban Center for Middle East Policy as part of the Brookings Institution.

    Haim Saban is a fascinating individual as per his bio from Saban Capital where he collaborated with Rupert Murdoch in the purchase and the ultimate sale of Fox Family Network Worldwide for the largest ever single Hollywood transaction. Mr. Saban supports the Soroka Children’s Hospital in Israel, the John Wayne Cancer Institute, the Motion Picture and Television Fund, the Friends of the Israel Defense Forces, the American Israel Education Foundation, and the Clinton Foundation Foundation.

    In short, Mr. Saban is not a supporter of Muslim groups. https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/when-hillary-clinton-threw-arab-and-muslim-americans-under-bus

  33. Many of us apparently wake up every day surprised at the complexity of the real world and wishing for more Hollywood reality programming in our daily diet of news.

    It simplifies so much if the good guys wore white hats and the bad, black.

    But alas, reality has to even deal with inconsistent people, bad sometimes and good others.

    What’s an extremist to do?

    Unfortunately the answer to that is also complex and involves things like skeptical credibility and evidence and odds and probabilities and being wrong and right some of the time.

    Being elected President in America in 2016 requires somewhere around $1B. That doesn’t gain you an advantage, but only doesn’t cost you advantage. We could and should wish for better in the future but that’s today’s reality.

    Politics has always been the art of the possible and the search for the best that a majority of us can be sold. There is absolutely nothing solid about it. It’s as fluid as the ocean currents and and as opportunistic as a day of fishing.

    We need to grow up a little.

    President Obama’s best ever skills are a direct result of his pragmatism. He listens, he senses advantage and disadvantage, possibilities on both sides of every issue, the accumulation and spending of political capital, and risk management. He’s not idealistic, he’s practical but among the country’s most accomplished Constitutionalists, so he’s practical about the American Dream, almost an oxymoron.

    It’s probably not incorrect to say that he’s one in several billion.

    Is Hillary another like him? I doubt it, that would be too much to hope for. The one thing that can be said with absolute assurance is that she’s the best that we will be offered.

  34. “Among the critiques: Sanders surrender preserves the corrupt Capitalist Two Party System here in the USA once again. ”

    Louie; the American public has the option of Independent and Green parties and write-ins, they stay with the two party system by choice when they vote in primaries, general elections and presidential elections. They have always had other options – which in essence amounted to no option due to no chance of winning. The third party or write-ins do not have the support, the backing, the trust or the money to campaign on the level of Democrats and Republicans…and the current Democratic party doesn’t have the money the Republican party has. The left has badmouthed Bernie and Hillary; the right has badmouthed all 17 of their hopefuls, it is the same story every election year…including state levels. Why would I want to write-in Bernie Sanders or vote for the Green party, which would increase the odds for the Republican party which means Trump and now, Trump plus Pence? I have a “Pence Must Go” yard sign; the current situation is not one I want or could have foreseen. My sign will stay.

    Hillary Clinton is Donald Trump in drag; she is corporate America to the max. She and Donald Trump are buying their nominations and we are left with the option of voting for the lesser of two evils. I would vote for Charles Manson – or either George Bush – if they ran on the Democratic ticket. Don’t blame the continuation of the current two-party system on Bernie Sanders; take it to the American public and see how far you get with changing their mindset.

  35. “Hillary Clinton is Donald Trump in drag; ”

    Only difference is she’s fully qualified to be President and he’s completely unqualified.

  36. JoAnn, just read your sentence “Hillary Clinton is Donald Trump in drag; she is corporate America to the max. She and Donald Trump are buying their nominations and we are left with the option of voting for the lesser of two evils.”

    I agree that Hillary Clinton and her ‘Clinton Money Machine’ are busy buying her presidential nomination, gathering millions of dollars from deep-pocketed donors who’ll gladly vote for Clinton in return for her undying, loyal support of their favorite causes that enhance their personal or corporate bank accounts. On the other hand, I do not see Sanders or Trump buying their nominations, beating the bushes for monetary donations from those with deep-pockets whose contributions have strings attached. Clinton alone is the quintessential corporate establishment candidate, bought and sold.

  37. Aimee – thank you for capturing RFRA is this succinct way: “it allows an employer to say that it is against their religion to accommodate yours”.

    It always bothers me when folks mistake Indiana’s RFRA for the federal RFRA. They are not the same, and Gov. Pence’s problems likely would not have occurred if the Indiana law was restricted to governmental discrimination. Business discrimination against anyone who was not already protected by state civil rights laws reminds of the Jim Crow days when businesses denied employment, service, and housing to blacks. Indiana’s RFRA allowed an employer to say ‘my religion is more important than yours” and with governmental protection. Religious institutions may discriminate basd on religion, but private businesses should not be able to refuse to serve or employ you based on your religion – or theirs.

    I am still so impressed that some of Indiana’s high profile businesses agreed. HOORAY for Cummins Engine, Lillys, Angie’s list, and others who stepped forward to speak up against discrimination.

    As for Trump’s selection of Pence, that selection has angered at least some on the political right. Ann Coulter, a long-time Trump supporter who contends he’s never made a mistake says Pence is Trump’s first one. http://www.mediaite.com/online/trumps-first-mistake-ann-coulter-not-impressed-by-potential-veep-mike-pence/.

    MSNBC is reporting that Trump was in California and upset when Pence’s selection leaked out yesterday. Trump reportedly spent the evening trying to see if he could change the Pence selection even as Pence had made his way to New York for the scheduled announcement.

  38. The important thing about Hillary’s campaign was that it was successful. Other strategies were not.

    Nobody of course knows what strings, if any, she accepted. I’ve been close enough to the business world to know that none are usually attached. It’s typically just a reminder for the winner of who your friends are.

    None of us can afford to live in a world without business. The country has to float all boats be they individuals or institutions. Balance is the key. Clinton I and President Obama did a masterful job of floating the whole fleet. I don’t know if she will do as good or not but I accept that the wind blowing against her is 90% Republican flatulance for 30 years. They still haven’t gotten over Bill weathering it as well as he did and President Obama merely setting his sails to take advantage of it.

    While all of this is IMO accurate the bottom line is that the difference in qualifications for the Presidency between Hillary and Trumpence is nearly infinite.

    She is raising the $1B just in case the number of blind Republican loyalists will make it necessary.

  40. Paul Ogden, you make an excellent point.

    The hypocrisy of the left is astounding. Those of us who have followed politics for decades and know the intricacies of the law, and the political past those who today defenestrate RFRA, are not swayed by a pseudo-liberalism that actually seeks not equality, but despotic ruling of the self-appointed intellectual elites.

    To the lady yelling obscenities there in the corner, take a chill pill.

    Have a great day!

  41. MartinaLevi
    So many good points. This group is only for diversity, as long as you agree with them.

    You are accused of being critical of another by sayin they are ‘less than candid.’ ?
    As if that is even close to ‘militant Jew,” or ‘put her in her place.’ Which is where?

    Pete is for, and get this “freedom at all is freedom for all.’ Make a t-shirt out of that!

    True, unless it includes you having the freedom to practice your own religion.

    True, unless your right to say something requires them to put you in your place.

    True unless you are an unborn child who’s right to life infringes upon her mother’s right to choose.

    Or you are are another country who we don’t want a free trade agreement with.

    Or you are a citizen of another country who voted to get out of the UE.

    Or you agree with them.

  42. Bingo, Pete! “Only difference is she’s qualified…” Perfect summation without a whine or a rehash !

    Good Lord! Where did that new one come from? Is that a female Gopper? She’s madder’n hell, isn’t she?

    What restraint you’ve shown today, Sheila! There’s plenty of crap to counter today, if you choose to!

  43. William the difference between government, the topic here, and culture, your topic, is the Constitution. You are free to practice whatever culture you want as long as it doesn’t impact the legal rights of others.

    Love, hate, marry, agree or disagree with anybody you care to and so will I. That’s the freedom that our law not only allows but promotes.

    Typically when I disagree with you it’s because you are advocating something that in my experience has failed in practice or is irrational or without supporting evidence. That’s what I want others exposed to your public pronouncements to consider.

    Freedom is based on equality of rights not entitlement. That line is apparently blurry to some.

  44. And MartinaLevi-

    Over It-How rude! How offensive! And no one called her out. That’s ‘yucky.’

    It is okay to mock, ridicule someones deepest held belief because you don’t hold beliefs?

    And no one called her out?

    That’s what you are dealing with MartinaLevi.

    Your rights and feelings are of no concern, if you don’t hold the same beliefs as this ‘tribe’ holds, the good Dr. included.

  46. Pete

    ‘Freedom is as freedom does!’ Now there is a t-shirt!

    Constitution:
    Freedom of Religion

    Constitution 14th Amendment:
    Right to life, privacy

    You are unable to concede that an unborn child, one minute prior to her birth, is considered a human being, yet the inferred right to privacy, granted in the 4th Amendment, gives women the right to deny life to an unborn child even after the child has been accidentally born, if it is the woman’s choice to end the child’s life.

    Huh. I guess some rights trump other rights, and this tribe thinks that those with different constitutional priorities must be put in their place.

    Thats where your ‘culture’ comes in.
    This tribe cheers ‘putting someone ‘in her place.

    This tribe doesn’t condemn members who mock peoples’ religion.

    Trump is a disgrace, as are those in your tribe who don’t condemn Over It for mocking someones religious beliefs.

  47. Pete, your rights end where mine begin. And viceversa. The US Constitution grants me the freedom to observe and practice my religion. It is between me, my soul, and my G-d. I will not force you to practice it. No worries. 🙂

    You say that one can practice whatever culture one wants, unless it infringes upon the legal rights of others. I absolutely agree on that too, my friend.

    But to imply that someone has the “legal right” to be served by someone’s private enterprise, is egregious and an attempt against the very liberties on which this country was founded.

    You are free to be you. I am free to be me.

    The difference is that I am not trying to silence anyone with intimidation, insults, and bereating comments and vile ad-hominem accusations.

    Have a great day.

    Oh, and for those foaming ouf of your mouths: grow up. This is real life, not the school yard.

  48. Pete, your rights end where mine begin. And viceversa. The US Constitution grants me the freedom to observe and practice my religion. It is between me, my soul, and my G-d. I will not force you to practice it. No worries. ?

    You say that one can practice whatever culture one wants, unless it infringes upon the legal rights of others. I absolutely agree on that too, my friend.

    But to imply that someone has the “legal right” to be served by someone’s private enterprise, is egregious and an attempt against the very liberties on which this country was founded.

    You are free to be you. I am free to be me.

    The difference is that I am not trying to silence anyone with intimidation, insults, and bereating comments and vile ad-hominem accusations.

    Have a great day.

    Oh, and for those foaming ouf of your mouths: grow up. This is real life, not the school yard.

  49. Culture. Faith. Opinion.

    They all share common ground. They are all assumptions made in the absence of evidence. Therefor they are neither and both right and wrong. Not right or wrong in the absolute sense but some will have made similar assumptions and some opposing assumptions.

    That makes them ripe for discussion and debate.

    In contrast are the sciences. They are not assumed but proven through experimental evidence and peer review.

    There are also political science and law which are means by which conflicting opinions can get resolved according to established rules.

    People are entitled to culture, faith and opinion and also entitled to opposing culture, faith and opinion. That’s freedom which includes free discourse about them.

    Freedom bothers some people who feel entitled to more.

  50. “But to imply that someone has the “legal right” to be served by someone’s private enterprise, is egregious and an attempt against the very liberties on which this country was founded.”

    Clearly you have the right to follow your culture in your private house. When you open a public business it must follow the laws established for public businesses. It’s part of the license that we the people grant for use of our “space”.

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