It Wasn’t “The Establishment”

In the wake of Joe Biden’s victories on Super Tuesday, there has been a concerted effort by Sanders’ most rabid supporters (undoubtedly abetted by some Russian ‘bots’) to accuse a nefarious (and conveniently un-defined) “Establishment” of dirty tricks.

The folks crying foul look a lot like the Trump supporters who dismiss any and all facts that contradict their fervently-held beliefs as “fake news.”

The data says otherwise.

An analysis of actual data by Thomas Edsell in the New York Times is instructive. Here’s his lede:

Four years ago, in Grant County, Oklahoma, Bernie Sanders crushed Hillary Clinton, 57.1 percent to 31.9 percent.

This year, Sanders didn’t just lose Grant County — 87.5 percent white, 76.9 percent without college degrees — to Joe Biden, his percentage of the vote fell by 41 points, to 16.1 percent.

Grant County reflects what has become a nationwide pattern in the Democratic primaries, including those held Tuesday night: Sanders’s support among white working class voters has begun to evaporate.

What happened?

Edsell mines the data. It shows that large numbers of voters in 2016 were extremely hostile to Clinton; they voted for Sanders because they detested her–not because they were part of Bernie’s “revolution.” Once she captured the nomination, a surprising number voted for Trump.

Edsell suggests that the aversion of these (mostly) male voters to Hillary was also a factor in Elizabeth Warren’s inability to do better in the primary. He cites a recent study,

“Understanding White Polarization in the 2016 Vote for President: The Sobering Role of Racism and Sexism,” by Brian Schaffner, a political scientist at Tufts, and Matthew MacWilliams and Tatishe Nteta, political scientists at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, was published in 2018 in the Political Science Quarterly.

Trump, according to the authors, deliberately put racism and sexism at the center of the campaign in order to make these issues salient and advantageous to his candidacy:

Trump’s rhetoric went far beyond targeting racial and ethnic groups; he also invoked language that was explicitly hostile toward women. These remarks were often focused directly at opponents, such as Carly Fiorina and Hillary Clinton, or news reporters, such as Megyn Kelly.

Edsell goes into some detail about the study, and it’s worth clicking through and reading, but his larger point was that considerable research demonstrates that a very significant percentage of non‐college‐educated whites hold sexist views.  So we shouldn’t be surprised by post-primary analyses that show non-college educated whites –many of whom voted for Sanders in 2016–breaking for Biden in significant numbers now that Sanders no longer faces Hillary.

Overall Sanders is running well below his 2016 vote share everywhere. A lot of people underestimated just how much of his support in 2016 was an anti-Clinton vote, and now that he’s not running against Clinton, those voters aren’t backing him anymore.

Other interesting data points: between 10 and 12 percent of Sanders’s 2016 primary voters voted for Trump in the general election, with an additional 12 percent either voting for a third-party candidate or not voting at all. And many weren’t Democrats; interviews with Sanders-Trump voters over the years suggest that only 35 percent of them had voted for Obama in either 2008 or 2012.

What separated Sanders-Trump voters from Sanders-Clinton voters was simple racism.

When asked how they felt about whites and blacks on a 0-100 scale, Sanders-Trump voters rated blacks 9 points less favorably than Sanders-Clinton voters. But Sanders-Trump voters rated whites 8 points more favorably.

Nate Silver has also crunched the numbers, pointing out that in 2016, Sanders won 43 percent of the primary vote against Clinton; however, if “24 percent of that 43 percent were #NeverHillary voters, that means Sanders’s real base was more like 33 percent of the overall Democratic electorate.”

If Edsell and the scholars he quotes are right about the extent and effect of latent sexism (and not-so-latent racism), it explains why Sanders’ support diminished this time around–although it doesn’t explain the significant reduction in turnout by young voters, especially in a year when Democratic primary turnout overall has skyrocketed. (One tongue-in-cheek explanation: Young people tweet. Old people vote.)

One thing, however, is clear. No matter how distasteful the evidence is to Bernie’s most passionate supporters, neither the pathetically inept DNC nor some shadowy “establishment” are responsible for his likely failure to win the nomination.

It may seem inconceivable to them that a majority of Democratic voters prefer Biden. But the data says they do.


  1. Yes. FB is posting many of these quite militant anti-Biden memes from people who allegedly exist. They also “guarantee” a Trump win if Bernie is not the nominee. If indeed some of these are GOP/Russian troll operatives or just computer-generated people, then I see it as “normal” for GOP politics and their messaging creatures. They have, after all, no real messages upon which to attract conscientious voters.

  2. Edsall or Edsell mined Grant County, Oklahoma and provided details of the population and the reason why they voted as they did. In 2016 there were 288 Democratic votes. Did he interview all 288?

    Returning to college in the 50s a restaurant in Pond Creek (Grant County) had the tastiest omelet ever. Didn’t learn about their politics.

    The link to Edsall Edsell wouldn’t open.

  3. It’s not surprising that 20 – 22 percent of Sanders voters weren’t Democrats. Sanders is NOT a Democrat. I’ve actually tried to explain that to several Bernie supporters that I know and they just tell me he’s a democratic socialist, which to them means he’s a Democrat. Then they tell me that he caucuses with the Democrats, so that makes him a Democrat. I pointed out that he could caucus with the Republicans, but then he would get the Chairmanship of the Senate Subcommittee on the Toilets, not the Subcommittee on Veterans’ Affairs. Since they really don’t seem able to understand the basic workings of our Government, I just shake my head and walk away. You can’t successfully take over what you don’t understand.

  4. Sheila,

    “If Edsell and the scholars he quotes are right about the extent and effect of latent sexism (and not-so-latent racism), it explains why Sanders’ support diminished this time around–although it doesn’t explain the significant reduction in turnout by young voters, especially in a year when Democratic primary turnout overall has skyrocketed. (One tongue-in-cheek explanation: Young people tweet. Old people vote.)”

    When understanding Sanders lack of support, for some un-Godly reason, we forget anti-Semitism, as if Bernie wasn’t Jewish. Coming from Vermont, the least religious state, I guess he also forgot about it too.

  5. Who says the trolls hyping only Bernie aren’t from the RNC? When you motto is “win at any cost”, is anything off the table?

  6. Continuing to deny the level of anti-Semitism in the U.S. and the reasons WHY, plays right into the hands of the RNC and their vehemently, anti-Semitic leader and his Jewish son-in-law, the PERFECT FRONT.

  7. The anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, misogynist, VIRUS OF THE MIND that has been outwardly circulating in the U.S. since the early ’80s is, potentially, much more destructive than the Coronavirus Pandemic.

  8. I do understand that anything I’ve said today is totally meaningless, since there is no ORGANIZED COUNTERVAILING FORCE against the TRUMP REGIME. Just a bunch of empty words.

  9. im on the side of change, but the reality is when will it ever get started? trump is a setback,and we may never see it change again..the change,where the working class gains ground again,and seeks a equality among the working class. wages,and job security that tells,wall,street to pay up, and sit down.. we lost this fight after reagan. and we continue to loose ground because of the peoples inability to recognize the change,and issues,and who,the hell their electing..more seem to go,with the flow,and whatever sounds good in thier ear.. this is where civics lost to social media. moms not home when the kids came in from school,and dinner went to fast food,and energy drinks.give it a break,,if you have kids,have them come home to family,not a i phone…..Sure we can support someone like Bernie,a stable economy that works for all,more equal than the one thats been shoved up,our collective asses..reality time line,decades….simple,when the working class has been thrown literally to,the lions,,( as you see,i dont make a economic class here,middle class etc,its working class)and we finally see our national pride,economy, stability,and wages,health care and safety nets,going over the edge,we finally woke up..the mass media has driven a stake into journalisms heart..the influence alone is deafening..I walk around the media,i still read the facts,and make a effort to double check the story..yea,joe,we get your message….we are in recovery mode..we finally see a floating device,in a pool of shit..,in my life,of a mere 65 years, ive seen some shit happen…the Kennedys,Dr.King,AIM, and the vietnam war protests..(A Nation in change,and what it cost)..but when a party (dems and rep)in washington DC literally makes a effort to make our nation look like another third world nation in terms of its standings,for,the greed of the rich, GFYourself.. we have bigger minority percentage today who dont see black and white now, they want equality,balance,and a even shake.. Obama was suppose to be that,joe was his right hand man to whiten the load. it never happened. we remain at the same status quo, as the working class,after 2008. were now just climbing back up the rope,trump hung us with..we will never see the tree branch again..joe is a vehicle back to Obamas grace,his posture,his words of wisdom,his smile,the respect we gained after king george the 2nd big mistake….but it still all goes to,the rich,and wall streets greed. wall street runs this country now, look,around,and look at whats left after 2008. jobs sure,create all ya want,they now mean next to poverty wages formthe working class,and pocket full for the investors,and one wrong move by wall street now, we again will see a economic collapse again..because we allowed the wall street mob,to make the decisions that only keep them healthy.(they pocketed our safety net,WTF).trump sits down,i guess his stock broker said to him,you made a lose at your own tweet again,and again and again stupid…no meaning to him people are dieing and the republicans throw some chips into the crowd.. well joe, whatya got,to offer us now??? i guess ill get my gloves back on and climb up that rope no one seems to call it what it is,,,, economic slavery, and a Nation truly in distress… vote da blue,no matta the hue…or whats dripping off it…

  10. If the Boomer generation spent a little more time on Twitter, and less time on the boob tube, they may be more informed on matters impacting the world. But then again, all the Boomers were informed by the likes of Chris Matthews on MSNBC who salivated at the opportunity to slam Bernie Sanders.

    Do you honestly think supporters of Bernie Sanders (those who invested time and funds) appreciated the corporate media railing against Sanders with “socialism” references and comparing him to Hitler?

    As Dan mentioned above, there were also many concerted efforts by registered Republicans to cross over and vote in the Democratic Primary.

    African Americans came out en masse to support the former V.P. of Barack Obama. Not because of his policies, but because he was the former V.P. of a black president and endorsed by all the failed Democratic presidential candidates, less Elizabeth Warren, who played neutral (one of the reasons her candidacy failed).

    At this point, Joe Biden should limp to a victory in the primary if we can even complete the primary, but those states where he won with the African American votes, will be secure Trump victories. Should we have a general election this year, we’ll have two horrible choices from the two capitalist parties: one inept narcissist and one with dementia. Either way, the Ruling Class wins.

    And once again, the #NeverBiden crowd will not vote for either of those inept choices because a vote for them is a vote for a failed system controlled by the Ruling Class in the USA. I am sure that Bernie will take the high road tonight and going forward. Still, many of his supporters will either write Bernie in or cast a vote for the U.S. Socialist Equality Party, which is fielding both a President and Vice-President.

    As this virus exposes our flawed systems — specifically our for-profit healthcare system — those who are paying attention will get an education. However, it won’t be from the corporate paid mouthpieces on television who derive much of their revenue from the for-profit healthcare system and political spending of the capitalist owned and controlled political parties who also rely on Citizens United for income.

    All I can say is good luck to Joe and his supporters, but I fully suspect that Trump will crush Joe because he WILL NOT take the high road as Bernie Sanders has done. The attacks will be vicious on a man with dementia.

  11. Marv
    ill call it,,hypocrite..trump at the prayer breakfast,getting anointed by the teleevangilists,Kushenr would whore his mother for a buck,and the fact, people talk god when they are the issue.. racism is a culture here,and will always be. its just been allowed to mass itself to a flag,and be hoisted above those who despise it.. i think of the free speach stuff over burning a American flag,, thats nothing compared to the slader from our own elected officials overall.. racism,anti semitism, got a bigger voice,and a bigger defender in the white,house..

  12. Todd,

    “The attacks will be vicious on a man with dementia.”

    The rumors about Biden could be correct. Especially, noteworthy are his angry responses. It won’t take much to EXPLOIT this observable weakness.

  13. Over this last week, I had some interactions with a pack of Bernie supporters, all young, white male attorneys. It started with a fb post by one who vowed not to vote for Biden. to which I responded that he should just vote for Trump and be honest about understanding the consequences of another Trump term. Then the flying monkeys swarmed in with a litany of reasons why Biden was terrible. All false equivalencies, I pointed out. Further, I said that if they didn’t have a problem with the Supreme Court going from 5/4 to 8/2 conservative, then they needed to check their privilege meter. The response was that I was “playing the privilege card” and that if I had a middle class job, salary, and time on my hands, I had no right to talk about privilege. (I am female and have experienced all the bull that goes along with it.)

    I felt like I was talking to a bunch of Trump supporters. They weren’t lying or parroting, but they _were_ awash in false equivalencies. They are attorneys. They should know better. At the same time, I know that they are up to their eyeballs in enormous student loans, so I do understand their attraction to Bernie.

  14. wallflower,

    You can’t fight this POLITICAL WAR on just ONE front: bi-partisan politics. It’s just not honest or “hard-hitting” enough in the situation we’re now in. Without EFFECTIVE, TIMELY RESISTANCE, we’ve had it.

  15. What if what we are headed for is a depression?

    What if the change we thought was optional is really the collapse of what worked in the old environment but is mal adapted to the present and future?

    What if the novel coronavirus, like antropogenic global warming, is now unstoppable and will grow until 40% of us have had it, and that grants all of us herd immunity while a few million new openings are created in nursing home? What if the health care and insurance businesses are revealed to be the next country clubs serving the wealthy while the poor eat cake?

    What if Trump is the end of what he represents and the change that Bernie could describe well but may not have ever been able to accomplish becomes democratically the next revolution?

    I am beginning to believe that our extremist wealth redistribution days will end in a blaze of failure. Something will rise from the ashes.

    There’s a chance it will good.

  16. If left-handed right-brained people vote in sufficient number as to actually determine the winner of the 2020 presidential election as well as the winners in Congressional elections, left-handed right-brained people could rightfully be called “the ruling class”. They determined who the leaders would be, did they not?

    So, what does ruling class mean in America? Isn’t the ruling class whatever mass of voters proves most determinate in a given election? I’m talking about what the words “ruling class” actually mean, not what complainers and social scientists want them to mean.

    Oh, yeah; right. Touche. That mass of left-handed right-brained voters that determined the outcome of the election were MADE to vote that way by the “real” ruling class …which comes by means of magical brainwashing …which comes by means of advertising and media manipulation …which comes by means of big money …which comes by means of theft from innocent, virtuous, hard-working — but gullible — people.

    Call it a flop, but I am discombobulated completely off my feet by such “reasoning” and its similarity to the “thought process” of Trump’s deplorables.

  17. Pete,

    “I am beginning to believe that our extremist wealth redistribution days will end in a blaze of failure. Something will rise from the ashes.

    There’s a chance it will be good.”

    How about an approximation of how long that is going to take? Will it just be a decade or much longer.

  18. Greg Palast reported today that Bernie lost 553,000 votes in CA because of the “No Party Preference” rule of Democratic Party rules. CA independents overwhelmingly vote Democrat in the General but are essentially prohibited to vote in the primary without reregistering which the party makes difficult. 1. The “establishment” impedes voting. 2. Would Bernie have received more delegates if he had received an additional half million votes?

    Re “a nefarious and un-defined Establishment”, anyone with experience within a party knows the pressure exerted on workers to adhere to the party’s wishes. From the Ward Chair to County Chair to State Party, one must toe the line, or else.

  19. Peggy Hannon,

    What makes Bernie a classic democrat is his DISbelief in trickle down economics, not whom he caucuses with or what he calls himself.

    I use the adjective “classic” to differentiate between the cheerleader democrat with the blue pompoms, who may or may not understand the trickle down game, and the classic democrat who knows the game and its fundamentals backwards and forwards.

    Anti-trickle down is the deciding fundamental upon which professional democrats play the game of Government.

  20. Wayne Moss: I don’t dispute your observations, which point to the role of the undemocratic SYSTEMIC ISSUES that plague our theoretically “democratic” processes. These structural impediments are very real–and they should be addressed. But they are not the same thing as a deliberate effort mounted to defeat a particular candidate, which is what the conspiracy theorists on the left are alleging. In any given election cycle, they’ll distort results and disadvantage some candidates more than others, but that situation is not the same as a shadowy “cabal” working to undermine a targeted candidate.

  21. Biden’s speech about what should be done as we face the pandemic sounded presidential to me, Trump has yet to do as well. I don’t buy the dementia stuff you’re parroting. Stutterers have difficulty in sound bite responses like the debate. Trump holds the all time record for not only lies but also for word salads of gibberish. And you’re complaining about Biden’s gaffes?

  22. Peggy, regarding Bernie’s standing within the Democratic Party, and those who wish to classify him only as a Socialist, please search “Defining ‘Bernie’s Democratic Socialism’ by Heather Gautney. It begins “Bernie Sanders’s democratic socialism has always centered on improving the lives of working-class people and exposing how exploitation by the rich robs them of the opportunity to live dignified lives. Corporate Democrats who continue to ignore or undermine this agenda are putting themselves, the country, and the world in great peril .”

  23. Wayne Moss as someone who grew up in the South Chicago area and later re-located to Indianapolis I agree with your statement: “anyone with experience within a party knows the pressure exerted on workers to adhere to the party’s wishes. From the Ward Chair to County Chair to State Party, one must toe the line, or else.”

    This was very evident in the Chicago area and to a lesser extent here in Indiana. Your position and possible rewards within the party were dependent upon supporting the selected Party Candidate.

    Somehow several candidates just before Super Tuesday decided to “drop out” and then endorse Joe Biden. The DNC changed the rules to give Bloomberg a space in the debates.

    If all you are voting for is against The Trumpet, by all means Vote for Biden. If you want real change to our corrupt corporately owned political system and economic system – Bernie must be choice.

  24. I voted for Bernie during the 2016 primary. Prior to that, I worked on his campaign — the first time I’d ever done any such thing. I was all in for him till he lost — when I immediately switched my allegiance to Clinton.

    This time around, you couldn’t pay me to vote for him unless his opponent was Donald John Trump. The reason is simple: last time, after he lost the nomination and it was time for us all to pull together to defeat Trump, Bernie didn’t. Perhaps because he’s not a Democrat. Perhaps because he’s a crotchety old man who can’t stand not getting his way [does that sound like someone else we know?]

    Whatever his reason, once the primary was over, he continued his attacks on Hillary. He called her “unfit to be president” AFTER she had secured the nomination. He also didn’t call off his attack dogs. He could have told his followers, in no uncertain terms, to knock it off and get with the program of defeating Trump. And he didn’t.

    He lost me through that demonstration of petulance and he seems to be on track to pull the same stunt this time and to usher in 4 more years of Trump.

  25. Today’s discussion proves my main point. There are two vital issues: #1 Neutralizing Trump before it’s too late and #2 A Democrat winning the Presidential election.

    It’s impossible for one mind to EFFECTIVELY concentrate on both issues. There has to be a division of effort before it is too late.

  26. twocrows you may want to read this:

    Also in July 2016:
    Amid some of his most passionate supporters in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Sanders officially endorsed the former secretary of state in her battle against Donald Trump after a series of policy compromises were hammered out over the weekend.

    “I have come here to make it as clear as possible as to why I am endorsing Hillary Clinton,” Sanders said to exuberant applause, “and why she must become our next president.”

    “There is no doubt in my mind that as we head into November, Hillary Clinton is by and far away the best candidate to do that.”

    He closed, thumping the lectern and proclaiming: “Hillary Clinton will make an outstanding president and I am proud to stand with her today.”

  27. The Democratic Party’s candidate might win the Presidential Election, but he will have no ability whatsoever to stem the tide toward the new strain of Fascism as represented by our President, Donald Trump.

    It has to be a win/win situation, a partial victory will be worthless in the short, as well as, the long run.

  28. I have a lot in common with some of Bernie’s ideas on reform, especially with his arguments for reform of the wage structure, but given his scant legislative record, I think, ironically, that he is not the one to carry out his own announced reforms. Biden, I therefore conclude, is more likely to beat Trump than Bernie, and while I have been a Warren aficionado from the beginning, I hold no animosity against any Democratic candidate (except perhaps Tulsi) in their respective quests for office. My candidate has withdrawn and I have landed on Biden as our most likely winner in the fall.

    Sheila correctly notes the difference between ideological and personal attacks leading to political defeat and whether it’s Russians, Bernie’s troops or any others outside the reach of party, such attacks will help elect Trump and cannot be ignored. We have a Big Tent, politically speaking, and can harbor Democratic Socialists and relatively conservative Democrats in its shadow. Let’s not reduce the size of that tent to a tee pee and thus exclude some from our own ranks to aid and comfort (and perhaps reelect such as Trump).

    More is involved here than intramural strife over structural defects; we can deal with that later. Unity. First things first, and the first thing is to send Trump packing this fall. Then we can hear from Bernie, Elizabeth, Pete and others in their continuing attempts to include their views into President Biden’s policies, many if not most of which will find a home.

  29. Marv, we are in uncharted waters. There’s no guidance in the Trumpublican playbook nor anyone else’s.

    Next are the bad times that our parents told us we should save to get through during the good times. The powers that be, Trumpublicans, didn’t.

    Getting through them will require good judgement, collaboration and acceptance that we are all in the same boat in the same weather and waters.

    Trumpublican failure is assured.

    How will the country rebuild?

    My most optimistic hope more than estimate is that by 2024 we can get back to 2016 but better aligned to the new reality.

  30. This is not that hard. Vote for your favorite in the primary, and the Democrat in the general. Encourage your friends to do the same.

  31. Pete,

    “Marv, we are in uncharted waters. There’s no guidance in the Trumpublican playbook nor anyone else’s.”

    These aren’t uncharted waters. All you have to do is take a deep look into Nazi Germany, which you, along with the rest of America, haven’t been willing to do.

  32. Sorry for the length of this, but I am working from home monitoring a system that is working without problems. We were asked to work from home for at least two weeks.

    First of all – Thank you Sheila. This talk of the Deep State – I mean the Democratic Establishment is like the apocalyptic movements finding excuses for why the world didn’t end.

    Peggy – Just to clarify – the Democratic Socialists formed because they believed that old school socialists were wasting efforts and votes. The believed that we have a two-party system in this country and thus to achieve any change, they had to work within one of the major parties and that meant the Democratic Party. Their first success was LBJ’s War on Poverty, inspired by the book, The Other America by Michael Harrington, one of the founders of the Democratic Socialists of America. Also, if you compare Bernie’s platform with FDR’s Second Bill of Rights, they look very similar. BTW – old school socialists dismiss the DSA as “socialist lite” or “new dealers”. Given that, I don’t know why Bernie insists on maintaining his status as “independent”. Perhaps he can be criticized for that.

    Jack smith – Take heart – I am a tad older than you at 70, so I have seen the same things, but my take is more optimistic. Clinton said liberal ideas were bad; Obama said that they were good hearted, but foolish. That was movement. The irony of Obama is that he fulfilled a generations long goal of Democrats for universal health care (or something on the road to it). He did it by embracing a Heritage Foundation, pro-capitalist plan – but simultaneously convinced America that health care is a right and not a commodity. Bernie may not be the nominee, but he has opened the Democrats up to talking about their twentieth century New Deal roots. That is why, even with a President Biden, I have hope for the future.

    Sorry Todd, but this Boomer never liked Chris Matthews. I prefer Lawrence O’Donnell, much to the left of the other anchors and Ali Velshi, a business reporter with Canadian sensibilities (also the true Kenyan-born Muslim, as he reminds people periodically).

    Pete – I am with you all the way.

    Larry Kaiser – 8)>

    Wayne Moss & ML – I am a Ward Chair in Marion County, Indiana (Indianapolis) – I was appointed because my organization, Greater Indianapolis for Change, ran 15 people for Precinct Committeeperson and won 14. I have been “lobbied” by party officials, but I never obey them. I vote the way I want for leadership and for party endorsements. The old ward system is dead. There are no jobs handed out (nor is garbage pick-up effected) and no “walk around” money for party workers – and with early voting, election day activity will lose some of its effect.

    A further note on primaries, open and closed – Michigan instituted its Presidential Primary by ballot initiative. It is an open primary – any registered voter can vote. The first primary was in 1972, won by George Wallace. I did a quick analysis afterwards. Here is one example. In each of the two precincts in Pleasant Ridge, a suburb of Detroit, Wallace received a bit over 600 votes. The Democrats received a little over 100 votes total. In every general election looking back for several years, there were about 200 Democrats (voting for down ballot state officials) and 800 Republicans. Open is more democratic, but should Republicans get to choose their opponents?

    I have no quibbles with Bernie over his support for Hillary. I do question his use of HIS bully pulpit. I supported Bernie in 2016. I attended some local meetings, but not many. A while after his concession to Hillary I attended another gathering. I understood the desire to remain together as a group to influence party rules and the platform, as well as being a future force within the party. I was flabbergasted by the meeting. There was great discussion about the potential need to vote third party (contradicting Democratic Socialist principles). When some of us who remembered Nixon started to object, the “leaders” said that we were inappropriate as all ideas were welcomed and the will of the movement was being expressed. On woman even showed her “interesting” world view by declaring that (1) she was voting for Jill Stein, (2) she was going to challenge Andre Carson (most progressive Indiana representative) because he backed Hillary, and (3) she was going to win easily because “the people” were with her. Bernie should have used his position as leader of the movement to declare that no supporter of his would vote third party or stay home. He could have said that one electoral loss was actually a win as he changed the discussion and that since the youth were with him, as long as they stayed engaged, they would eventually win. He didn’t ask for my advice, but he did lose my support. I learned long ago on how to take over a political organization. He set things up to invite Jill Stein to do just that. Obama was at the other extreme, keeping tight reins on DFA (which is why we created our own organization).

    OK – I have held forth long enough – sorry again for the length.

  33. Len,

    “Their first success was LBJ’s War on Poverty, inspired by the book, The Other America by Michael Harrington, one of the founders of the Democratic Socialists of America.”

    Thanks for the reminder. Michael Harrington’s book was magnificent.

  34. This thread today is hilarious to say the least!

    Everyone talks about defeating Donald Jesus Trump, the chosen one, but no one wants to make the hard choice! Which, is a conundrum! If you want to take your boat across the lake but you would rather use the bilge plug instead of the bilge pump. Maybe because you don’t like the manufacturer of the bilge pump, or the bilge pump makes too much noise, or the bilge pump isn’t eco-friendly, so you leave the bilge plug out! Not a very good thought process, because you’ve just sunk your boat 100 m offshore. But, you stood by your principles!
    Common sense would say, use all available means to get that boat across the lake, then, if need be, change the bilge pump to something more acceptable. At least, you didn’t lose the boat! Now, if one wants to be a martyr, that’s a different story.

    But, alas, Daniel’s prophecy hits the nail directly on the head, there can be no coming together, and the entire history of mankind stands on a base of materials that cannot be blended together. There is no way one could ever mix clay and iron! So, everything collapses! You can see the handwriting on the wall so to speak, it scared Nebuchadnezzar! And, it should put some fear and trepidation and everyone’s bones. Because not only has the United States and Britain along with France, China and Russia agreed to meet very recently, to work on a hegemonic type of governmental relationship to supposedly eliminate terrorism and other problems that these governments decide to address. But, what do the United States, Britain, France, China, and Russia have in common? Well, that is a good question!

    Boris Johnson has just agreed this past week, Donald Trump agreed a while back, Russia was the 1st to float the idea, China was the 1st to accept, France was the 2nd, the US was the 3rd, and the UK was the last.

    Do you actually think they’re talking about democracy? They are definitely talking about religion! So whatever one thinks of religion, they are meeting at the United Nations to discuss this very thing! Don’t take my word for it, I’ve been reading this for the past couple of weeks. And, in the Washington Post amongst others no less. So, while everyone worries about an election, or a virus, the thieves move in the darkness, and no one sees what’s happening until time has passed! I fear, the horse is so far down the road, shutting the barn door will be just a decoration to feel good, because it will do No Good. The die has been cast, while everyone was busy buying houses and cars, going on those nice vacations, and not paying attention!

    A lot of folks might be grateful that churches are going to take it on the chin, that religion seems like it’s run its course and being called out, but, that’s one of the pillars of the First Amendment! And, it’s one of the pillars in almost every so-called free democratic country on the planet. Even in Russia they have the Russian Orthodox Church, China has Buddhism and Janisim, and we all know the churches of the United States, UK, France, and the rest. When you demolish one, you demolish all. And by all, I’m not talking about churches, I’m talking about civil and human rights! Because it will not stop with religion, it will move to the press, that it will move to the ability to address your grievances to the government, and of course, meet publicly!

    White men who many saw as just being the regular old working Joe, have been the engine behind racism and ethnic strife in this country since the beginning. Around the world, it’s just the same book, just a different translation. Substitute a word, or a gender, or a race, for another, and it’s all the same. I really had my eyes opened all of the years I worked for the electric utility, people who were buddy buddy with me, would talk about some of the most disgusting, Vile and depraved desires, that concerned anyone who wasn’t white or women or Jews, they are the ones that love Trump and Bernie for that matter. And they are the ones that the Russians definitely knew they could manipulate. So, here we are, there is no going back, the cats out of the bag, or the horse is long gone, what are you gonna do?

  35. “Marv, we are in uncharted waters. There’s no guidance in the Trumpublican playbook nor anyone else’s.”

    These aren’t uncharted waters. All you have to do is take a deep look into Nazi Germany, which you, along with the rest of America, haven’t been willing to do.’

    Marv, you are spot on. William L. Shirer documented it but who even knows about his ow prescient book these days? Thanks to my Dad, I read it when I was a kid. It should be required reading since the parallels he documented from 90 years ago are right there staring at us in our faces . This “thing” has to be stopped. 4 more years of us will mutate this country and our society in to something that may take decades to turn around if ever. We are all wasting precious time right now while the Trump Party and its master keep using every means at their disposal to solidify their hold on this country and defile our way of life and our international influence as they do it.

  36. My previous post referred much more to economics than politics. We are on the brink of economic failure due to the combination of fossil fuels losing much of their value and the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on productivity and consumerism and entertainment.

    I predict that this is really the beginning of an out of control transition from extreme corporatism to the next economic thing, whatever it turns out to be.

    Whatever prejudices exist probably won’t change but this was a necessary evil to flush Trumpublicans from our system.

  37. Tom,

    “Marv….These aren’t uncharted waters. All you have to do is take a deep look into Nazi Germany, which you, along with the rest of America, haven’t been willing to do.”

    “Marv, you are spot on. William L. Shirer documented it but who even knows about his own prescient book these days? Thanks to my Dad, I read it when I was a kid. It should be required reading since the parallels he documented from 90 years ago are right there staring at us in our faces . This “thing” has to be stopped.”

    We don’t appear to have the necessary CIVIC COURAGE to organize against the FASCIST threat. We don’t even mention the word publicly. It’s a shame as Trump is vulnerable right now and we could still save our democracy.

    We appear to have learned nothing from the German experience other than the horrible concentration camps. The strategic and tactical events leading up to the birth of the Nazi movement have always been minimalized, so much so, that it now “can happen again” right here in the good ole U.S.A.


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